Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollypop

[ProKeymaster]

Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop

jtime – ‘Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

I thought I’ll start a thread to capture something you’ll all be familiar with. Something you can observe and something you can apply your thoughts to and perhaps a little temporal thinking.

In nature, there are many unique species, each with properties that go relatively unnoticed to everyday life. Taken for granted is the world around us…

Anyway, here is a taster. The sycamore tree, like all trees and species alike, need to procreate. The seed of the tree is a remarkable piece of bioengineering.

Carefully wrapped with wings to allow it to float away from the shadow of the tree, to germinate and to photosynthesise. Evolution has a linear answer to all species, adaption one step at a time, the weak perish. Not here…. The tree (nature) needs to know something more.

Adaption is a careful process, one mistake and it becomes critical , one more, you’re gone. One right move and you live. How does the seed transfer this information back to the tree. Don’t litter this thread Creationist views, there is a lollipop at stake here, you’ll get nothing for shallow thoughts. :thumbup:

M_Vos – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

I’m sorry mate, maybe you should refine your question a little bit. I’ll give some thoughts on scientific mechanisms that govern nature in many aspects. Diversification, as it is seen with plants and other species is cross-linked with natural selection.

Natural selection needs multiple ‘versions’ of one organism (read as: different mutations of one characteristic). And according to the ‘survival of the fittest’ principle we’ll have the strongest individual selected (bad mutations have a low lifespan and disappear).

So in essentially; mutations are governed by game theory (meaning it needs a chance, a random factor in order to have multiple mutations). Random factors determine the outcome in some way (note that environmental and competition play an important role as well!).

So how did the seed of this tree originate? I believe this Darwinian approach is the most valuable one. And yes I did, we should not use creationism to understand this observation scientifically. It’s not that I won’t listen to it, it’s just that I like this general approach much more than involving higher powers in this fairly standard point of view.

Scientifically seen we most likely will evolve from a class 0 to a class I civilization this century, and to me this certainly means that we should be able to describe almost everything we see with the use of a scientific ( not religious ! ) approach.

M_Vos – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

Now for the system that involves inheriting the characteristics from mama tree to our little baby trees:

Plants are multicellular organisms which have a basic cell structure (not as advanced as an animal cell, but keep in mind that the organelles which are the photosynthesis factories; the chloroplasts are quite advanced). It also has a nucleus and has DNA inside the cells. We all know DNA is our personal database of who we are.

Mutations of DNA is the important trigger for natural selection, as stated above. Also cool to know is that the human genome is about 3-4 base pairs long, which is similar to the amount of base pairs in corn (who knows it’ll start talking one day? :OGwink: ).

But plants DNA contains a lot of garbage DNA, parts of the string that are useless for coding. So my guess is that DNA is the crucial factor in giving a tree its looks and characteristics. I don’t know if it answers your question, but as said, feel free to restate your question.

jtime – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

M_Vos, the question was not intended to draw on the background of existing knowledge concerning Transfer genetics or random mutation.

More so, of the symbiotic relationship between the tree, the seed and in the sycamore trees’ case, the wind. The same question can be applied to fruit bearing trees and animals. The relationship between the internal makeup of one lifeform and its’ external environment goes beyond random mutations.

To add to this, there is a plant that needs flame (from bush fires) to germinate. Fire of all things. What this suggest, at the core, is that while some mutation seem random, there is still a form of connection through space (perhaps even through time) between lifeforms.

Pro – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

Hmmm, I’ve seen those fire plants on a documentary before I think, those kind of symbiotic relationships are interesting and often unexpected.

Like the tiny fish that clean parasites from sharks and other fish for example. Is this the kind of thing you had in mind Dean?

pandamonk – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

[quote=jtime;457]The sycamore tree, like all trees and species alike, need to procreate. The seed of the tree is a remarkable piece of bioengineering.

Carefully wrapped with wings to allow it to float away from the shadow of the tree, to germinate and to photosynthesise. Evolution has a linear answer to all species, adaption one step at a time, the weak perish. Not here….

The tree (nature) needs to know something more. Adaption is a careful process, one mistake and it becomes critical , one more, you’re gone. One right move and you live. How does the seed transfer this information back to the tree.

Don’t litter this thread Creationist views, there is a lollipop at stake here, you’ll get nothing for shallow thoughts. :thumbup:[/quote]It doesn’t transfer any information back to the tree. The seed becomes a new tree and spreads it’s own seed. If the seed is better adapted than it’s parent’s, then it’s descendants are more likely to survive.’

pandamonk – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

[quote=jtime]M_Vos, the question was not intended to draw on the background of existing knowledge concerning Transfer genetics or random mutation.

More so, of the symbiotic relationship between the tree, the seed and in the sycamore trees’ case, the wind. The same question can be applied to fruit bearing trees and animals. The relationship between the internal makeup of one lifeform and its external environment goes beyond random mutations. To add to this, there is a plant that needs flame (from bush fires) to germinate.

Fire of all things. What this suggest, at the core, is that while some mutation seem random, there is still a form of connection through space (perhaps even through time) between lifeforms.[/quote]

If every year there is a Forest fire, which kills all plant life, this leaves an opportunity for a species to adapt to cope with, or even require, fire. If a species can do this, then it have a huge advantage over the competition.

The adaption can happen through purely random mutations, it just takes enough time for just one plant to get this beneficial mutation, and it will spread like “wildfire” :D.

M_Vos – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

Hi pandamonk, welcome to the forum =)

Essentially; what you just said is pretty much the same of what I replied a couple of posts above. But the topic starter altered his question by stating: “…the question was not intended to draw on the background of existing knowledge concerning Transfer genetics or random mutation…”

“Since I don’t really understand what’s he’s meaning, I can only assume what we’re saying is not wrong; it’s only not what he’s hoping to hear.’

SeanTheLight – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

It may be months late, but it is possible he was referring to the new trees ability to compete with the mother tree for resources. I.E.: if the parent tree is made to struggle for resources, the child tree might be the cause, and the amount of competition is in proportion to the health of the child tree.

A parent tree could stand for thousands of years, droppings seeds, sprouting new child trees, which eventually move away from or are stifled by the parent trees needs.

In that case, instead of transferred genetics, it is possible the parent tree is evolving, trying new seed styles, new packages of genetic material in those seeds, until it is overcome by its children.’

xclr82xtc – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

The seed holds a special “starter code” the roots picked up this code when the seed was decomposed, and started to change its seed to allow for the wings…

It was sheer luck that allowed the tree to complete the process (I.e. the wind blew just right to blow the non winged seeds out far enough away, or some bird pooped out a whole seed or something) we should check seen DNA vs tree core DNA and see what we find’.

TriPower – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

[quote=jtime]…How does the seed transfer this information back to the tree… there is a lollipop at stake here, you’ll get nothing for shallow thoughts. :thumbup:[/quote]

Crickey this topic is years old and jtime is nowhere to be seen. Nevertheless the question is very interesting. But my first thought is “Does the successful aerodynamic seed need to communicate with the tree (mother ship)?”

What if the tree knows how to genetically engineer the right type of seed in the first place? This is not as far fetched as it sounds even though it is contrary to Darwinian Evolutionary Theory.

Microbiologists use the term ‘arms race’ to metaphorically describe bacteria’s ever present ability to develop anti-biotic resistance.

Fortuitous mutations – or engineered responses to the counter immediate threats? But if we consider that the successful seed does communicate with the tree then it can be explained in similar terms as quorum sensing (Quorum sensing is a type of decision-making process used by decentralized groups to coordinate behaviour. Many species of bacteria use quorum sensing…).

The concept of quantum entanglement also further helps us understand the possible mode of communication.

If we regard the seeds as not only clones of the tree but also as still entangled with the tree:” Wiki: Quantum entanglement is a property of a quantum mechanical state of a system of two or more objects in which the quantum states of the constituting objects are linked together so that one object can no longer be adequately described without full mention of its counterpart; even if the individual objects are spatially separated in a space-like manner.”

AdamMedici – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

[quote=jtime]Don’t litter this thread with Creationist views, there is a lollipop at stake here, you’ll get nothing for shallow thoughts. :thumbup:[/quote] One man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

I suppose it’s all in how you look at it mate. Both evolutionists and creationist are searching for the same answer just by opposite means.

The answer requires both because one without the other although it may seem fundamentally correct is still incomplete. This forum is a place where shallow thoughts do not occur…just some hollow spam links (which pro needs to get fixin).

AdamMedici – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

Although on a philosophic level I disagree with Darwin’s views on not letting the “worst of our species” breed. And although you have ruled it out I still believe this problem falls neatly under: accidental genetic mutation that turns out to be an advantage for survival…- and so it is we have Sycamore trees….

At least until something changes to make that advantage a disadvantage. Now I’ll give you two lollipops if you can explain where mass comes from. :headscratch2:

AdamMedici – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

No worries mate. I love this forum, I am in your debt for its creation. I get to vent my mind and watch Old school skate vids. Which reminds me I gotta post some Rodney Mullen videos.

Pro – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’

[quote=AdamMedici;1005]No worries mate. I love this forum, I am in your debt for its creation. I get to vent my mind and watch Old school skate vids. Which reminds me I gotta post some Rodney Mullen videos.[/quote]Nice one mate, thing is that all the spam used to be computer generated (which I could block in my Admin Panel) but now it’s human based so it’s actual people signing up and posting :spam: I’m just off to reply to the skating thread now :thumbup:

Pro – ‘Re: Nature holds many keys, solve this and you win a lollipop’ [quote=AdamMedici;985]

This forum is a place where shallow thoughts do not occur… just some hollow spam links (which pro needs to get fixin)[/quote]Sorry about the spam Adam, they sign up and because this is an open minded place I let the account alone until they post spam, then I’m on it asap. I get so many spammers sometimes that it’s difficult to keep up with em all :nut:

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